St. Joseph's

[NDGradXUFan]

First time poster, here. I'm an ND grad/fan and a lifelong Xavier fan. The formation of this league has been a bittersweet for me. For the longest time, I've longed to see Xavier, Dayton, Saint Louis, Creighton and other regional Catholic schools join Notre Dame in a reorganized Big East, both because I'm a Notre Dame homer and because I've wanted to see Xavier and some of its rivals join a conference with the sort of teams they deserve to play. Without Notre Dame, the mythical Catholic Conference loses a bit of lustre for me, and I'm for that reason sad to see ND go to the ACC (although I understand why the decision was made), as both an ND and Xavier fan.

That said, the question about future expansion is incredibly frustrating to me, and not because of who is being mentioned as potential additions, but rather because of who isn't being mentioned - St. Joseph's, a historical program which, year-in-year-out, has a crazed basketball culture and intensity amongst its fans, irrespective of the team's record. Other than Cameron Indoor, is there a better place in the country to see a college basketball game than on Hawk Hill? And how shortsighted are we? Less than ten years ago, St. Joe's went undefeated in the regular season, was a #1 seed, and went all the way to the Elite 8 before losing to Oklahoma State in a squeaker. Let's be honest; the only reason the Hawks are being left out of the Big East is the fact that Nova already captures the Philly market. Again, it's ALL about money. Just once, I'd like to see some sort of deference to history and fan interest when it comes to conference realignment. Xavier will lose a conference foe with whom, over the past 15 years, the Musketeers have developed an intense rivalry. It's very sad. If I could, I'd move mountains to generate sufficient public outcry to demand St. Joe's inclusion ...

[marquette]

Money has nothing to do with it. St. Joe's isn't going to be invited because Nova doesn't want to recruit against them, the same reason they weren't invited to the Big East when Marquette was.

[NDGradXUFan]

Money has nothing to do with it. St. Joe's isn't going to be invited because Nova doesn't want to recruit against them, the same reason they weren't invited to the Big East when Marquette was.

On the one hand, I see your point, and I'm now rethinking to what extent revenue potential factors into expansion. On the other hand, Nova's squeamishness about having another team in Philly is, in my mind, an equally stupid reason to exclude St. Joe's. The notion that the two schools don't already compete for Philly recruits is ludicrous, irrespective of whether St. Joe's actually wins any of those recruiting battles. Even if bringing the Hawks into the league would foster more recruiting parity between them, the other 9 schools should not allow Villanova to have veto power, especially when it's not in the best interests of the league.

But back to the revenue question. On some level, I despise the extent to which revenue plays into expansion, but I also see its merit. For this reason, I'm starting to question the decision making. I get that expansion has focused on teams further west. The league wants a bigger footprint and more geographically natural rivals for DePaul and Marquette. So, um, let's think about this for a second in terms of both geography and revenue. Xavier is in Cincinnati - metro area population of 2.1 million - Check. Butler is in Indianapolis - metro area population is also 2.1 million - Check. Creighton is in Omaha - metro area population of ... 415,000. Um, what? I understand that considerations go beyond television markets, but if they mattered at all, you'd think Creighton would be immediately excluded. Yes, they have good basketball chops in recent memory, but historically they've never been much of a factor. And again, let me say this - Omaha, Nebraska. Let's look at another program which, arguably, has as much basketball pedigree (at least historically) as Creighton - Detroit Mercy. The Titans were good in the 70s, and had a few tourney upsets in the 90s, and here's the kicker - the population of the Detroit metro area is 5.2 million. Think about that for a second; ruminate on that number - 5.2 million people, the 12th largest city in America. Are there greater television marketing dollars to be had in Omaha?

I love the Bluejays program, don't get me wrong. They have a rabid fan base and are routinely in the top-20 in attendance nationwide (probably because there's nothing else to do in Omaha ... much like Dayton). I also don't have any particular interest in Detroit's basketball program ... but maybe I would if the profile of the league could elevate their program and provide a geographic rival to Xavier. I think it's safe to say that from Providence to Omaha, there would be more fan interest across the board in any Creighton match up than that of Detroit, but that's because people have short-term memories and are more familiar with the Bluejays' program. This raises the ultimate question related to expansion - do you expand based on (a) short-term potential revenue, geographic locale, and recent strength of program; or (b) long-term potential revenue, geographic locale, and historical strength of program? I'm not raising this question to protest Creighton being included. Again, I'm excited that the Muskies get to play them every year (they developed a great short-term rivalry with the jays back during the days of Kyle Korver and David West). I'm more trying to work through how these expansion decisions are made ...

[SixTwentySix]

What you're essentially asking is that Nova waters down their program and shares it's potential recruits with another school to help them out... and for what? The sake of a rivalry? There isn't a school in the country that would take a hit like that for another school. As a small private university, Nova has to fight for recruits as it is, let alone competing with the university down the street. Denying St Joe's has always made sense, and it still does in the new conference.

[NDGradXUFan]

What you're essentially asking is that Nova waters down their program and shares it's potential recruits with another school to help them out... and for what? The sake of a rivalry? There isn't a school in the country that would take a hit like that for another school. As a small private university, Nova has to fight for recruits as it is, let alone competing with the university down the street. Denying St Joe's has always made sense, and it still does in the new conference.

It makes sense for Villanova, but practically no one else. And to be fair, you should acknowledge that, under Jay Wright, Nova's recruiting territory has expanded well beyond Philadelphia. Hell, when has it ever been confined to Philly? The only standout players I can recall that were from Philly were, most recently, Kyle Lowry, and going further back, Jason Lawson and Alvin Williams. Nova recruits all over the eastern seaboard, and always has. Ed Pinckney? NYC. Kerry Kittles? New Orleans. Tim Thomas? Newark. Sumpter? NYC. Foye? Newark. Allan Ray? NYC. Scottie Reynolds? DC. Dante Cunningham? DC. St. Joe's? Well, maybe they're already more regionalized, so I'm not sure how joining the Big East would even hurt Nova. I think it really boils down to Nova wanting to exclude the possibility of another being team to be top dog in their city. It's the same reason Cincinnati hates Xavier so much.

[SixTwentySix]

I fully acknowledge that their recruiting has expanded, but a good reason for that is because they've established themselves as a program. Something they may not have been able to do over the years if Temple and St Joes were in the Big East. And I never said the recruiting was confined to Philly. Every recruit you just named, aside from Kittles, was no more than a 2 hour drive away. I consider that local recruitment. And it's not just in the best interest of Nova. Georgetown, Providence, and the others... They're not going to take a jab at Nova and risk hindering one of their conferences solid programs for the sake of St. Joes. To be honest, it may be the best move in the world if they did it... but it may also end up being a horrible one. And the new conference wont take that risk.

[marquette]

I understand all the reasons to include St. Joe's, and in a perfect world they would get an invite. I love regional rivalries and if it were up to me that would have been one of the major considerations. I also have a slight preference for Dayton as #12 for the sake of the rivalry with Xavier (I also understand why Xavier might not want Dayton in). However, Nova has been in the Big East from the beginning and worked hard to help bring the conference to the national forefront. Nova has a right to protect itself. Someday each of our schools will have some kind of conflict of interest and here's hoping the other schools will be as supportive when that time comes.

Along the same lines, the reason Creighton was always considered a lock is that Marquette really wanted them in. Yes, they have a strong recent record. They also fit the institutional description to the letter. Rabid fan base? Double check. All of this made Marquette's job as an advocate easier, but the fact that their president sits on our board of directors put it over the top. It doesn't hurt that they're outside our recruiting zone (I know we recruit all over, but it's still nice to have a bubble).

In regards to Detroit, they lack any sort of fan support and have very little tournament success. The past couple of years they have been playing better, but they still would need to take a massive step up to switch from the Horizon to the Big East. It doesn't help that there are other D1 schools in the nearby area that take part of their market. They also compete with the pro sports teams in Detroit for attendance and TV market. The biggest shot against Detroit is that they share a market with Michigan and Michigan State. There is no room for a third school in that region to gain anything but the most limited fan support. It sucks, but that's how it goes sometimes.

[bostonfriar]

Without meaning to take a negative tone in this response I have 2 comments:

1- Why would you phrase your initial comment that you wanted certain Catholic colleges to join ND in a conference? Kind of ND centric.
2- regarding money one reason the BE FB conference failed is because ND refused to place its FB team in the BE. Why was that? MONEY. One could argue that had ND been willing to fully join the BE and had ND not chosen to move to the ACC things might have been very different with the conference outcome.

To be clear, I am very hapyy with the current BE direction and while it would be good to see ND play my college (PC) Mike Brey has gone out of his way (twice) to say he would never play PC again.

Money has nothing to do with it. St. Joe's isn't going to be invited because Nova doesn't want to recruit against them, the same reason they weren't invited to the Big East when Marquette was.

On the one hand, I see your point, and I'm now rethinking to what extent revenue potential factors into expansion. On the other hand, Nova's squeamishness about having another team in Philly is, in my mind, an equally stupid reason to exclude St. Joe's. The notion that the two schools don't already compete for Philly recruits is ludicrous, irrespective of whether St. Joe's actually wins any of those recruiting battles. Even if bringing the Hawks into the league would bring more recruiting parity between them, the other 9 schools should not allow Villanova to have veto power, especially when it's not in the best interests of the league.

But back to the revenue question. On some level, I despise the extent to which revenue plays into expansion, but I also see its merit. For this reason, I'm starting to question the decision making. I get that expansion has focused on teams further west. The league wants a bigger footprint and more geographically natural rivals for DePaul and Marquette. So, um, let's think about this for a second in terms of both geography and revenue. Xavier is in Cincinnati - metro area population of 2.1 million - Check. Butler is in Indianapolis - metro area population is also 2.1 million. Check. Creighton is in Omaha - metro area population of ... 415,000. Um, what? I understand that considerations go beyond television markets, but if they mattered at all, you'd think Creighton would be immediately excluded. Yes, they have good basketball chops in recent memory, but historically they've never been much of a factor. And again, let me say this - Omaha, Nebraska. Let's look at another program which, arguably, has as much basketball pedigree (at least historically) as Creighton - Detroit Mercy. The Titans were good in the 70s, and had a few tourney upsets in the 90s, and here's the kicker - the population of the Detroit metro area is 5.2 million. Think about that for a second; ruminate on that. 5.2 million people, the 12th largest city in America. Are there greater television marketing dollars to be had in Omaha?

I love the Bluejays program, don't get me wrong. They have a rabid fan base and are routinely in the top-20 in attendance nationwide (probably because there's nothing else to do in Omaha ... much like Dayton). I also don't have any particular interest in Detroit's basketball program ... but maybe I would if the profile of the league could elevate their program and provide a geographic rival to Xavier. I think it's safe to say that from Providence to Omaha, there would be more fan interest across the board in any Creighton match up than that of Detroit, but that's because people have short-term memories and are more familiar with the Bluejays' program. This raises the ultimately question related to expansion - do you expand based on (a) short-term potential revenue, geographic locale, and recent strength of program; or (b) long-term potential revenue, geographic locale, and historical strength of program? I'm not raising this question to protest Creighton being included. Again, I'm excited that the Muskies get to play them every year (they developed a great short-term rivalry with the jays back during the days of Kyle Korver and David West). I'm more trying to work through how these expansion decisions are made ...

[UDGutter2]

What you're essentially asking is that Nova waters down their program and shares it's potential recruits with another school to help them out... and for what? The sake of a rivalry? There isn't a school in the country that would take a hit like that for another school. As a small private university, Nova has to fight for recruits as it is, let alone competing with the university down the street. Denying St Joe's has always made sense, and it still does in the new conference.

There are different ways to beat someone, you could beat someone by being on a level playing field and just be better than them, or you could deny them the level playing field and make it easier on yourself, ie: better conference giving you better recruiting. You can also refuse to play and just say you are better. . .

I say this as conference realignment goes on. Sure, I am not happy there wasn't an announcement regarding UD (sheesh, just say if you're going to 12 and who they are so we can STOP all the rumors.) Some teams are good about at least playing, Villanova, Seton Hall and Pitt each recently gave UD a home and home series which were split, while Louisville gave UD a home and nuetral series both won by UD. I use UD, because its what I know. Whereas Notre Who refuses to play UD, while most of their fans I know would love to see it restarted. (One actually suggested UD make the jump from non-scholarship FCS to full FBS football and work to join the ACC, and he was serious. He didn't understand Title IX.)

Long story short, pick who you want for your conference, but please don't say we need to keep ( ) out so we keep/get a recruiting advantage, it makes you look small time, which you are not.

[NDGradXUFan]

And I never said the recruiting was confined to Philly. Every recruit you just named, aside from Kittles, was no more than a 2 hour drive away.

That is patently false. I live in DC and it is, on a good day, at least 3 1/2 hours to Philadelphia.