Is It Too Late For These Guys Reconsider

[Bill Marsh]

My understanding (which is not very informed) is that football programs are almost always a cash cow, winning or not.

That is not my understanding at all. Somewhere I read about the schools who actually came out ahead in FB and there were only a few like Texas. Most times the FB program is a drain on the school's funds and is a losing proposition. Just think about the cost of recruiting, travel for the teams, bands cheerleaders etc-crazy money.

This has been true for a long time. I'm not sure if it's still true with the enormous increases in TV revenue just within the past few years.

[Bill Marsh]

My understanding (which is not very informed) is that football programs are almost always a cash cow, winning or not.

That's what the football schools and their fans would like to have us believe. In the vast majority of cases it's not true. Schools from the P5 have gotten an enormous boost from the inflated TV contracts in recent years, which should increase the number of schools that are in solid fiscal ground, but the rest are losing money.

[Friarfan2]

Rutgers loses $28 mil on atheltics per year. Their tv increase should be about $10-20 mil, they should get some ticket revenue increase. So essentially they are going to have the same budget they had while in the big east (which clearly didn't work then) but will be competing against big 10 schools. Can't see how this is going to translate into winning seasons. Hey, at least they get to brag about playing ohio state.

Regarding the academic prestige of the big 10, I don't buy it. Northwestern is an excellent school. Michigan is a very good school. What else is in that conference? Large land grant universities that are generally easy enough to get into if you arer an in state applicant. I am not too impressed by schools like minnesota, iowa, penn state, illinois, nebraska, michigan state or indiana. I think most butler students would look down on indiana, most creighton students would look down on nebraska, etc... It is a good fit for rutgers as they are the same type of school, but the academic side of the coin is kind of hogwash and a lot of PR spin. At the end of the day it is still just a collection of state schools.

[marquette]

Rutgers loses $28 mil on atheltics per year. Their tv increase should be about $10-20 mil, they should get some ticket revenue increase. So essentially they are going to have the same budget they had while in the big east (which clearly didn't work then) but will be competing against big 10 schools. Can't see how this is going to translate into winning seasons. Hey, at least they get to brag about playing ohio state.

Regarding the academic prestige of the big 10, I don't buy it. Northwestern is an excellent school. Michigan is a very good school. What else is in that conference? Large land grant universities that are generally easy enough to get into if you arer an in state applicant. I am not too impressed by schools like minnesota, iowa, penn state, illinois, nebraska, michigan state or indiana. I think most butler students would look down on indiana, most creighton students would look down on nebraska, etc... It is a good fit for rutgers as they are the same type of school, but the academic side of the coin is kind of hogwash and a lot of PR spin. At the end of the day it is still just a collection of state schools.

Unlike the Big East, in the B1G fans are raised to hate each other's teams. As such, being raised by a UConn alum and a UW alum (yep, born and raised a fan of both the B1G and Big East), I believe I can be totally unbiased when I call bs on this. This is what is referred to as "Private School Elitism" and possibly "East Coast Bias". The B1G is, after the Ivy League, the most academically prestigious conference in the country.

Every year a list of "Public Ivies" is put out. This list is composed of public universities that are capable of "successfully competing with the Ivy League schools in academic rigor... attracting superstar faculty and in competing for the best and brightest students of all races." This list includes (but is not limited to) Penn State, Rutgers, Maryland, Indiana, Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota, and Wisconsin. That is every B1G school except Nebraska. You might also want to look into the CIC and what it means for research institutions (as an aside, UConn is also on there). In general the B1G wanted to expand into new markets and make more money, but the thing that separates them from every other conference (except the new Big East and the Ivy League) is that they considered institutional fit and academic prestige as much or more so than athletics. We could take a lesson from the B1G on inter-conference academic cooperation. You can look at just about any school rankings to confirm this.

Frankly, we are a great and prestigious collection of universities, but the only one of our schools on the same academic level as the B1G schools is Georgetown. I couldn't be happier to be attending Marquette, it was my dream school when I was a kid watching Dwayne Wade play. I like the new layout, from an academics standpoint, better than the old Big East even without Public Ivy UConn. Hopefully with our institutional similarities we can foster the same academic cooperation that the B1G enjoys and eventually we might all be on that status. Several of us are on that next level, but still not there yet.

[Bulldog_Muskie]

Rutgers loses $28 mil on atheltics per year. Their tv increase should be about $10-20 mil, they should get some ticket revenue increase. So essentially they are going to have the same budget they had while in the big east (which clearly didn't work then) but will be competing against big 10 schools. Can't see how this is going to translate into winning seasons. Hey, at least they get to brag about playing ohio state.

Regarding the academic prestige of the big 10, I don't buy it. Northwestern is an excellent school. Michigan is a very good school. What else is in that conference? Large land grant universities that are generally easy enough to get into if you arer an in state applicant. I am not too impressed by schools like minnesota, iowa, penn state, illinois, nebraska, michigan state or indiana. I think most butler students would look down on indiana, most creighton students would look down on nebraska, etc... It is a good fit for rutgers as they are the same type of school, but the academic side of the coin is kind of hogwash and a lot of PR spin. At the end of the day it is still just a collection of state schools.

Unlike the Big East, in the B1G fans are raised to hate each other's teams. As such, being raised by a UConn alum and a UW alum (yep, born and raised a fan of both the B1G and Big East), I believe I can be totally unbiased when I call bs on this. This is what is referred to as "Private School Elitism" and possibly "East Coast Bias". The B1G is, after the Ivy League, the most academically prestigious conference in the country.

Every year a list of "Public Ivies" is put out. This list is composed of public universities that are capable of "successfully competing with the Ivy League schools in academic rigor... attracting superstar faculty and in competing for the best and brightest students of all races." This list includes (but is not limited to) Penn State, Rutgers, Maryland, Indiana, Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota, and Wisconsin. That is every B1G school except Nebraska. You might also want to look into the CIC and what it means for research institutions (as an aside, UConn is also on there). In general the B1G wanted to expand into new markets and make more money, but the thing that separates them from every other conference (except the new Big East and the Ivy League) is that they considered institutional fit and academic prestige as much or more so than athletics. We could take a lesson from the B1G on inter-conference academic cooperation. Frankly, we are a great and prestigious collection of universities, but the only one of our schools on the same academic level as the B1G schools is Georgetown. Several of us are on that next level, but still not there yet.

Beat me too it. Most of the B1G are world renowned for their research and academics. In terms of undergraduate education, I'd say the big east schools are generally on the level of the B1G. We have a well respected group of universities, but a graduate education from a B1G school is almost unmatched depending on the field. Most of our schools just don't have the resources or the facilities to run that kind of research.

[Bill Marsh]

Rutgers loses $28 mil on atheltics per year. Their tv increase should be about $10-20 mil, they should get some ticket revenue increase. So essentially they are going to have the same budget they had while in the big east (which clearly didn't work then) but will be competing against big 10 schools. Can't see how this is going to translate into winning seasons. Hey, at least they get to brag about playing ohio state.

Regarding the academic prestige of the big 10, I don't buy it. Northwestern is an excellent school. Michigan is a very good school. What else is in that conference? Large land grant universities that are generally easy enough to get into if you arer an in state applicant. I am not too impressed by schools like minnesota, iowa, penn state, illinois, nebraska, michigan state or indiana. I think most butler students would look down on indiana, most creighton students would look down on nebraska, etc... It is a good fit for rutgers as they are the same type of school, but the academic side of the coin is kind of hogwash and a lot of PR spin. At the end of the day it is still just a collection of state schools.

You look down on them because you're impressed by selectivity and high admissions standards. Their prestige comes from their research departments which is highly valued in certain academic circles. This revolves around their graduate schools and has nothing to do with undergrad admissions.

Research attracts enormous funding for these universities which is where the CIC comes in. research attracts far more dollars to these universities than athletics does, which is why no school will ever leave the Big Ten and why a school like Rutgers was drooling to get in.

[Friarfan2]

Michigan and northwestern are really the only great academic schools in the big 10. Are you telling most students from butler couldn't go to media a? Or most students from villanova couldn't go to pretty much any big 10 school? Most providence students could go to Iowa or Illinois or Minnesota or Michigan state, or pretty much the entire big 10 except morthwestern ir maybe michigan. Heck, did you just say penn state was a better school than villanova?

Are you insane?

These schools have 50,000 students. They aren't all that selective. They have high caliber graduate programs, but their undergraduate programs are nothing special. They aren't much different than uconn or Delaware or Rutgers or Florida or any other state flagship school.

Wiscomsin's sat scores avg are 1170 - 1410, and they accept 70% of their applicants. Indiana is 1050-1280 and they accept 75% of their applicants. Purdue is 1060-1300 and they accept 62%. Illinois accepts two thirds of their applicants. Iowa? Are you kidding me, they accept almost 80% of their applicants. Michigan state is over 70% admission. Ohio state admits two thirds of their applicants.
How is that an "ivy league" caliber school?

The big 10 is not a better academic conference than the big east. Georgetown has a slight edge on northwestern, but are comparable. Villanova and Michigan are comparable, with Michigan having a slight edge. The rest of the big 10 is not better than the big east,they are comparable.

[Friarfan2]

I had plenty of friends from New Jersey when I was at providence. I can honestly say that every single one of them could have gone to Rutgers. Rutgers is not a selective university. They used to joke about rutgers. The term public ivies is a bit of a joke. Sure you have some good ones, like UVA, Michigan, ucla, cal, but after that you are just talking about massive universities that pretty much anyone from their state could get into. They spend money on graduate programs, but graduate programs are usually tailored for older students, commuting students, looking for cheaper education. And these schools are generally not that tough to get into (guarantee you could get into half the graduate programs at Iowa tomorrow, without even knowing anything about you).

Did you really say that villanova was not on penn state's level academically? You have a warped view if you think that. Penn state is definitely a safety school for villanova in the same sense that umass is for Boston college or uri is for providence. Villanova is a much better school than penn state.

[Friarfan2]

I would actually say the acc is a better academic conference than the big 10. Clemson, nc state, lousiville, and Fsu are no worse than Iowa or Indiana or Nebraska or michigan state. And duke, unc, uva, Boston college, notre dame, and wake are as good as northwestern and Michigan. Syracuse, Miami are just as good as Wisconsin and are better than Ohio state, Rutgers, Maryland, etc (which are more along the lines of Pitt, Georgia tech and Virginia tech).

You have six high end academic schools in the acc (nd, bc, duke, unc, wake, UVA). You have two in the big 10 (northwestern and michigan) which is the same as the big east (Georgetown and nova)

[Bulldog_Muskie]

Ugh