Which BEast programs NEED to succeed

[aughnanure]

Creighton has had great facilities for a while, and recruiting has been lukewarm at best. Butler and especially Xavier have already been recruiting at a high level. I want the Jays to succeed and I think they can, but I have my concerns. Going into and winning a battle for a top 150 recruit would do a lot to put put my skepticism aside.

They are picked as one of the top BE teams this season without any of these 'high level' recruits on roster. Granted you can't often expect a lesser recruited player to turn into a likely 3 time AA. And a team at the top without those recruits will be more of an exception than the norm.

But the recruiting is an inexact science and players often have different ratings from different services. A guy at 75 on one may be 225 on another. The top 40-50 seem to be somewhat static in makeup (not necessarily the rank), but outside of that it seems like throwing darts. The last couple top 100 kids that Creighton landed all turned out to be disasters. P'Allen Stinnett was a cancer that wore out his welcome flashing glimpses of jaw dropping ability overshadowed by long stretches of boneheaded mistakes. Andrew Bock left after a year of invisibility and now struggles to see the floor for Pacific.

There's something to be said for having an eye for kids that will develop to exceed rankings. Picking a group of kids that will mesh as a team and compliment each other is also underappreciated.

It may be inexact, but it's still a lot easier to be right when recruiting. You're talking about Bill Snyder type of player evaluation and development. And Brad Stevens was probably the closest thing to that.

But this isn't football with 100 man rosters. You have 13. That's really hard. Plus, much of the Top 5-100 can be considered undervalued kids too. The NBA isn't getting every top 100 HS kid. Maybe close to top 10, top 20. But after that, its finding role-players, diamonds, and solid 4-year players. I think that's soo much harder to do outside the top 100 - though the greater likelihood of your players staying around 4+ years can be an advantage. But a tourney-making advantage, not generally a conference championship advantage.

[ChicagoX]

There are a lot of fans who felt (unfairly?) that Altman's success at Creighton plateaued and a change was going to have to happen to climb even higher.

This reminds me of Xavier's program about a dozen years ago. There were a number of Xavier fans who loved the late Skip Prosser as a person and as an ambassador for Xavier University but were happy when he left for Wake Forest. The mentality was that he helped progress the program after taking over for Pete Gillen and regularly took us to the NCAA Tournament, but he only won one game in the Big Dance during his tenure at X and many fans thought the ceiling was higher. In came Thad Matta who hired Sean Miller who hired Chris Mack, and since that time Xavier has been to five Sweet Sixteens and two Elite Eights.

Sometimes it takes a change at the top to get a program over the hump. It's a risky situation though because it's just as likely that a new coach won't live up to expectations. Xavier has been fortunate to have built up such a solid coaching tree the past decade.

[DumpsterFireA10]

There are a lot of fans who felt (unfairly?) that Altman's success at Creighton plateaued and a change was going to have to happen to climb even higher.

This reminds me of Xavier's program about a dozen years ago. There were a number of Xavier fans who loved the late Skip Prosser as a person and as an ambassador for Xavier University but were happy when he left for Wake Forest. The mentality was that he helped progress the program after taking over for Pete Gillen and regularly took us to the NCAA Tournament, but he only won one game in the Big Dance during his tenure at X and many fans thought the ceiling was higher. In came Thad Matta who hired Sean Miller who hired Chris Mack, and since that time Xavier has been to five Sweet Sixteens and two Elite Eights.

Sometimes it takes a change at the top to get a program over the hump. It's a risky situation though because it's just as likely that a new coach won't live up to expectations. Xavier has been fortunate to have built up such a solid coaching tree the past decade.

I've seen changes at the top reported both ways. Many are predicting SLU to fall off the map because of the death of one Rick Majerus. It didn't happen last season, but the question is still a big one.

It can be a boost for a program too.

[Bill Marsh]

Good topic and agree with points already made. My hope is none of the schools have long runs being at the bottom of the league standings (not at the expense of my Musketeers of course . I wonder how the conference will do at MSG in this initial season? Xavier fans generally travel well. I would think Villanova with a strong team and close proximity will be well represented. Also believe NYC area will supply numbers with there being so many hard core college basketball fans in the metro area? Does Marquette usually bring a large contingent for the tournament? How about Georgetown? I know Creighton fans pack the house in Omaha. Should we expect lots of Blue Jay fans? Would love to hear from the long time BE fans on what you expect.

I expect the conference to do extremely well in MSG. Most of these schools wind up with a fair number of alumni in the NYC area partly because even the midwest Catholics draw significant numbers of students from the NY/NJ area.

What most people from outside the NYC metro area don't realize is how extensive the Catholic school network is on the elementary and high school level in and around NYC. Catholic education is huge in this area. Many NY fans who feel as though they have nothing in common with a West Virginia, or Pitt, or Cincinnati, or Louisville have no trouble quickly relating to Xavier, Marquette, DePaul, and even Creighton. Alumni of schools like Fordham, Manhattan, Iona, and Fairfield would love to see their schools at the Big East level, but given that their alma maters are not, basketball lovers from those colleges happily go to games and cheer for the schools who are a lot like they are and who have made it to the next level. Although Fordham and Marquette are not at the same level in basketball, in every other way they are very similar schools in that they are Jesuit colleges in big cities with great academics. In other words, they are in the same fraternity. If Fordham alums can't see their own school do well, they are happy to see Georgetown and Marquette do well. And if they love good college basketball, they'll sooner go to a game matching other Catholic schools than go to one matching up Cincinnati and Memphis or Louisville and Pitt. And they'd rather see St. John's play DePaul than to see them go against South Florida or East Carolina.

In many states, the state flagship university picks up fans from other state colleges whose sports are not big time. There is still an identity with the university that carries the flag for the state, which includes not only alumni but everyone else in the state even if they didn't attend State U. It's why Ohio State does so well. I think that for many Catholics, Notre Dame is their state flag ship. And to a lesser extent BC is the same way on a regional level. But for basketball, it's not just a couple of big time schools, it's a lot more to choose from and each school attracts its own supporters beyond simply its own alumni. I think that's something that is a foreign experience to college fans from the south and the West where it's State U or nobody and where football defines who you are.

I may be all wet on this one, but it's the way one guy sees it who went to Catholic schools all my life and who never set foot inside a public school until I got to the university level. Because of my background, my heart is with the Catholic schools and I think that the new Big East is the best development in college sports since the old Big East was founded 34 years ago.

End of rant.

[ChicagoX]

I've seen changes at the top reported both ways. Many are predicting SLU to fall off the map because of the death of one Rick Majerus. It didn't happen last season, but the question is still a big one.

It can be a boost for a program too.

I think the biggest concern for SLU is whether or not Crews will be able to bring in the level of talent that Majerus did. He's proven that he can win with Majerus' players, but the biggest test will be in 2-3 years when those players are gone and he is coaching his own recruits. Time will tell...

[DumpsterFireA10]

I've seen changes at the top reported both ways. Many are predicting SLU to fall off the map because of the death of one Rick Majerus. It didn't happen last season, but the question is still a big one.

It can be a boost for a program too.

I think the biggest concern for SLU is whether or not Crews will be able to bring in the level of talent that Majerus did. He's proven that he can win with Majerus' players, but the biggest test will be in 2-3 years when those players are gone and he is coaching his own recruits. Time will tell...

The first class of his recruits are higher rated (if you believe that stuff) than Majerus' classes. I think he does have something to prove since Army, but that's not exactly UCLA in the pantheon of college hoops. Your 2-3 year window is right too. If he's still in the Dumpster Fire, it probably won't matter.

[Wizard of Westroads]

GT and Marquette NEED to succeed. They're our best programs both at this point in time and historically. Sorry, but none of the rest of us are at that level on both counts.

As for my Bluejays, I understand concerns about whether our recruiting can catch up, but we will NOT be a bottom feeder after Doug leaves. This is a program that has always found a way to win but has lacked a platform to get to the highest level. Spoiled fans don't allow a program to sink, unless their school's administration doesn't care about athletics. Ours administration does, a lot more than some of the other schools in the league. And our fans are spoiled. Very. Dana Altman is a hell of a coach, and a sizable contingent of our fan base thought he was mailing it in the last few years.

[GumbyDamnit!]

GT and Marquette NEED to succeed. They're our best programs both at this point in time and historically. Sorry, but none of the rest of us are at that level on both counts.

Wizard, time for blind resume time:

Team 1:
All-time NCAA Tourney wins - 38-31
FF : 3
NCAA Campionships - 1
Last 10 yrs - 8 appearances; 1 E8; 3 S16

Team 2:
All-time NCAA Tourney wins - 49-32
FF : 4
NCAA Campionships - 1
Last 10 yrs - 8 appearances; 1 FF; 2 E8; 4 S16

Team 3:
All-time NCAA Tourney wins - 46-27
FF : 5
NCAA Campionships - 1
Last 10 yrs - 7 appearances; 1 FF; 1 E8; 2 S16


Objectively rank the above. I think you misspoke.

[MUSeashells&Balloons]

Marquette had a FF in the last ten years. In 2003, albeit at the very beginning but it happened.

[Bill Marsh]

Marquette had a FF in the last ten years. In 2003, albeit at the very beginning but it happened.

Yes, Marquette had a Final four 10 years ago, but that means that there have been 10 seasons since then. (2004-13) are the last 10 years. Going backwards, 2003 is year #11.