Did the Big East make a mistake adding Butler?

[Bulldog_Muskie]

I don't really get this argument (maybe my fandom is blinding me) but I fail to see why not selling out games against St. Bonaventure and Youngstown State should have kept Butler from moving to the big east. Butler, Xavier and Creighton were simply the best performing basketball-centric schools. Since 2000 Butler has been to the tournament 9 times, XU has been 11 times and Creighton 8 times. Compare this to Dayton and SLU who have 3 appearances apiece with Dayton's last appearance coming in 2009. Do you actually think the league would be better off with Dayton over Butler just because of community support? I also don't buy the argument that stevens leaving is the beginning of the end for the program. The team has regrouped with each coaching change whether it was Collier, Matta, or Lickliter.

That being said, yes the fan support could be stronger but they do come out for big games. Last year for example, I believe the Xavier, SLU, Temple, and Gonzaga games sold out. I wouldn't be surprised if sellouts start happening with more frequency once Butler starts playing the big east teams. Butler vs. Georgetown just sounds more exciting than Butler vs. Youngstown st on a Wednesday night.

[marquette]

16. Indiana - 4

• Butler (4,667 students)
• Indiana (42,731 students)
• Notre Dame (11,733 students)
• Purdue (39,256 students)

20. Wisconsin - 1

• Wisconsin (42,595 students)

Seems somebody forgot a little Jesuit university located in Milwaukee, WI.

[gmoser1210]

That one I DID forget, and I apologize as sincerely as possible!

[gmoser1210]

Valid reasoning, although I don't agree with it I think it's fair.

So was Butler high-major last season?

In my mind, Butler, Xavier, and Gonzaga were high-majors regardless of conference affiliation because of their post-season successes over the past decade or so -- none of them have fewer than 15 wins since 2000. I don't think there are any other teams with more than six wins since 2000 that aren't from the Big East, Big Ten, ACC, SEC, Pac-12, or Big 12. Some teams can get to the tournament on a semi-regular basis by playing in a weaker conference, so what I think matters is winning once you get to the tournament. For the record, I don't think the A10 is a weak conference, but I (and I'm guessing you) don't think it's a high-major conference, either.

[billyjack]

It looks like Butler was a perfect choice to join our conference. From what I'm reading, Butler is the only basketball school in a city of 1.7 million, the state capital, with no other D-1 school within a 2-hour drive. It also sounds like Butler, with a student body of 4400, but an average attendance at Hinkle of 8800, draws twice as many fans to their games than there are students at the school... and now they get to benefit from a Big East schedule, every game televised nationally, limitless exposure in the northeast, and their conference tournament in Madison Square Garden.

The title of this thread should be:
"Did the Big East Make The Perfect Choice In Adding Butler?"... or
"Butler-- Were They A Perfect Choice Or Just An Excellent Choice?"

[Michael in Raleigh]

It looks like Butler was a perfect choice to join our conference. From what I'm reading, Butler is the only basketball school in a city of 1.7 million, the state capital, with no other D-1 school within a 2-hour drive. It also sounds like Butler, with a student body of 4400, but an average attendance at Hinkle of 8800, draws twice as many fans to their games than there are students at the school... and now they get to benefit from a Big East schedule, every game televised nationally, limitless exposure in the northeast, and their conference tournament in Madison Square Garden.

The title of this thread should be:
"Did the Big East Make The Perfect Choice In Adding Butler?"... or
"Butler-- Were They A Perfect Choice Or Just An Excellent Choice?"

Hello all. This is my first post, but I've enjoyed making fairly regular visits to HLOH for the past several months.

This new league interests me greatly. Forgive me, but I consider myself an ACC fan first, coming from a family of Florida State fans and having lived the vast majority of my life in either North or South Carolina. So, yes, I'm a fan of the conference most responsible for the demise of the old Big East.

However, I also lived for five years in Indiana, from 2006 to 2011. Those years coincided with the greatest years of Butler basketball, when they were in the Final Four. I gotta say that I jumped right onto that Butler bandwagon. It was just too much fun to watch the small, hometown, historic hoops school rise all the way within one shot of the national championship while I happened to live there. I also totally bought into the way Butler seemed to do things with a high standard of ethics, hard work, and respect for the game.

Here were my observations about how Butler fit into the Indiana/Indianapolis sports landscape:
- Butler is/was almost universally respected by people around the city and the state. Purdue fans and IU fans alike pulled hard for Butler when they were in the Final Four. Some admitted jealousy, but they still wished Butler well.
- While Butler is the only real high-major school in the city, Purdue and IU had more alumni in the city. As others mentioned, those schools have had families follow those programs for generations. Butler's attention-worthy success, while significant, has been sustained for only 15 years or so. While that success may continue for many more years, it will take decades to establish generational, family-oriented loyalty.
- To clarify whether Butler should be considered all on its own as a D1 power in Indy, IU and Purdue are not two hours away. From downtown, Purdue can be reached in 60-75 minutes, depending on traffic lights in Lafayette and congestion on I-65. IU is roughly an hour from downtown.
- IU and Purdue also had more of a lead into the winter basketball season because the fall football season seemed to segue into hoops, the prime sport in hoops-crazy Indiana.
- Compared to Notre Dame hoops, on the other hand, coverage and interest in Butler was much, much stronger.
- Butler's schedule worked against them. Die-hard fans aside, which games are more appealing to someone just looking for an entertaining basketball game: Butler vs. Detroit, Valparaiso, & UW-Milwaukee, or Purdue vs. Illinois, Minnesota, & Ohio State? The answer is obvious. But, FWIW, a school like Purdue would also struggle to draw fans to games against teams that were anonymous to the average joe. In a year Purdue spent most of the season in the top 20, I attended the Purdue-Texas Southern game. About 60% of the seats were empty. So yes, opponents matter. The Big East will make a MAJOR difference in Butler's home game attendance.

[DumpsterFireA10]

Valid reasoning, although I don't agree with it I think it's fair.

So was Butler high-major last season?

In my mind, Butler, Xavier, and Gonzaga were high-majors regardless of conference affiliation because of their post-season successes over the past decade or so -- none of them have fewer than 15 wins since 2000. I don't think there are any other teams with more than six wins since 2000 that aren't from the Big East, Big Ten, ACC, SEC, Pac-12, or Big 12. Some teams can get to the tournament on a semi-regular basis by playing in a weaker conference, so what I think matters is winning once you get to the tournament. For the record, I don't think the A10 is a weak conference, but I (and I'm guessing you) don't think it's a high-major conference, either.

I hate the league because of SLU's involvement in it. It's a bad league because SLU can't get out of it, and they couldn't keep 3 tournament teams because of their own incompetence. But if that's your definition of high-major, that's fair enough.

[Bluejay]

(Blaming an NFL team for your woes is kinda weak too unless Butler plays a lot of games on Sundays....)

It did when it was in the Horizon, but it's not just the Colts. It's the Colts, Pacers, and nine other division one programs, including Indiana, Purdue, and Notre Dame. The others include Ball State, Indiana State, IUPUI, Valparaiso, and IPFW, which are all easy drives that take less than two hours. Not to mention high school basketball, which is almost a religion in Indiana. There's a reason Indiana has 12 of the 13 largest high school basketball arenas in the country.

I am not saying that Butler shouldn't have been added, although I do think their attendence should be better for what they have achieved.

Also, if you are going to count all of the little schools like IUPUI and IPFW, then you have to recognize Omaha's other d-1 school too: University of Nebraska-Omaha. Yes, they are D1...and yes, they are in Omaha too...

[gmoser1210]

Sorry about that. The list I looked at apparently left out UN-Omaha, likely because they won't be full D1 members until July 2015.

[JohnT]

My concern was based on what I consider to be substandard attendance for a team that played in consecutive national title games. If the school couldn't sell out every game following those runs, how are they going to do when their team is 6-12 in the Big East?